Forum: OFFSHORE FORUM - Online Sportsbetting - Mentioned in NY TIMES, WSJ, USA TODAY, & DRF. The internet's most popular and busiest sports betting forum. The place to discuss all kinds of sports and gambling related subjects.

Thread: Seabiscut OR Secretariat ...Who wins in a match race and why?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
  1. #1 Seabiscut OR Secretariat ...Who wins in a match race and why? 
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    I wish I would be able to see a match race like this......It would be epic IMO
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    RX SemiGod
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    12,435
    no clue ..........Just wanted to say congrats on being a mod again .........you are one of the good guys !
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    no clue ..........Just wanted to say congrats on being a mod again .........you are one of the good guys !
    thanks douglas for the kind words! I hope you can make it out to an RX bash one of these years would be great to meet you sir!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4 Seabiscuit vs Secretariat 
    RX Local wilheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Where Needed
    Posts
    75,241
    IMHO - there is little doubt that Secretariat was the better racehorse but that should not diminish the accomplishments of The Bisket who came along when the country badly needed a hero with a crippling depression in progress and WW2 on the horizon Seasbiscuit gave The US a common cause that offered great appeal to the poor, the middle class and the rich alike.

    Attachment 10862

    Cover of Laura Hillenbrand's best seller about America's horse of the era Seabiscuit.

    To get the real story about Seabiscuit, a $2000 claimer who was almost put down as a young horse read the wonderful book Seabiscuit - An American Legend by Laura Hillenbrand, available on Amazon for less than $10. The book is heartwarming, tragic, and an amazing story about a little horse ridden mainly by a little known jockey that won the hearts of millions at a time when a hero, horse of not was just what the country needed.

    As far as which horse was better, IMO there is little doubt that Secretariat was the better of the two and arguably the greatest racehorse of all time. His time of 1:59.4 for the mile and a quarter in the 1973 Kentucky Derby and a mind blowing 2:24 hand ride at The 1973 Belmont Stakes are both track records that stand today, almost 40 years later.

    Secretariat like the great Man O' War was a huge horse who stood approximately 16 hands 2 inches (170 cm) tall, and weighed 1,175 pounds (533 kg), with a 75 inch girth, in his racing prime.

    Attachment 10863

    Secretariat crosses finish line 31 lengths the best at the 73 Belmont Stakes in an amazing 2:24 for the grueling mile and a half.

    Secretariat won the Eclipse Award for American Champion Two-Year-Old Male Horse, only one horse since then, Favorite Trick in 1997, has won that award as a two-year-old.

    Already winner of The 73 Derby and Preakness, only four horses joined Secretariat for the June 9, 1973, running of the Belmont Stakes, including Sham, who had finished second in both the Derby and Preakness, along with three other horses thought to have little chance by the bettors: Twice A Prince, My Gallant, and Private Smiles. With so few horses in the race, and with Secretariat expected to win, no "show" bets were taken. Secretariat was sent off as a 1–10 favorite to win as a $2.20 payout on a $2 ticket and paid at 20 cents more – $2.40 – to place. Before a crowd of 67,605, Secretariat and Sham set a fast early pace, opening ten lengths on the rest of the field. After the 6-furlong mark, Sham began to tire, ultimately finishing last. Secretariat astonished spectators by continuing the fast pace and opening up a larger and larger margin on the field. Viewers heard the wonder in CBS Television announcer Chic Anderson's voice as he described the horse's pace: "Secretariat is widening now! He is moving like a tremendous machine!"

    In the stretch, Secretariat opened a 1/16 mile lead on the rest of the field. At the finish, he won by 31 lengths (breaking the margin-of-victory record set by Triple Crown winner Count Fleet, who won by 25 lengths) and ran the fastest 1½ miles on dirt in history, 2:24 flat, which broke the stakes record by more than 2 seconds. This works out to a speed of 37.5 mph for his entire performance. Secretariat's world record still stands, and in fact, no other horse has ever broken 2:25 for 1½ miles on dirt. If the Beyer Speed Figure calculation had been developed during that time, Andrew Beyer calculated that Secretariat would have earned a figure of 139, the highest figure he has ever assigned.

    Many bettors holding 5,617 winning parimutuel tickets on Secretariat never redeemed them, presumably keeping them as souvenirs (and because they paid only $2.20 on a $2 bet).

    Secretariat became the ninth Triple Crown winner in history, and the first in 25 years.

    Seabiscuit as inspirational a story and as courageous of a race horse as you will ever come across would have stood little chance to defeat Secretariat when both great runners were in their prime IMHO.

    Wil.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    RX Local Fishhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Posts
    75,004
    Who the hell knows...........ridiculous question.

    Good grief Donald
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
    Who the hell knows...........ridiculous question.

    Good grief Donald


    SHUT UP!! GOOFBAG GO take billsey on a date .... what does she see in you! god I will never know!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by wilheim View Post
    IMHO - there is little doubt that Secretariat was the better racehorse but that should not diminish the accomplishments of The Bisket who came along when the country badly needed a hero with a crippling depression in progress and WW2 on the horizon Seasbiscuit gave The US a common cause that offered great appeal to the poor, the middle class and the rich alike.

    Attachment 10862

    Cover of Laura Hillenbrand's best seller about America's horse of the era Seabiscuit.

    To get the real story about Seabiscuit, a $2000 claimer who was almost put down as a young horse read the wonderful book Seabiscuit - An American Legend by Laura Hillenbrand, available on Amazon for less than $10. The book is heartwarming, tragic, and an amazing story about a little horse ridden mainly by a little known jockey that won the hearts of millions at a time when a hero, horse of not was just what the country needed.

    As far as which horse was better, IMO there is little doubt that Secretariat was the better of the two and arguably the greatest racehorse of all time. His time of 1:59.4 for the mile and a quarter in the 1973 Kentucky Derby and a mind blowing 2:24 hand ride at The 1973 Belmont Stakes are both track records that stand today, almost 40 years later.

    Secretariat like the great Man O' War was a huge horse who stood approximately 16 hands 2 inches (170 cm) tall, and weighed 1,175 pounds (533 kg), with a 75 inch girth, in his racing prime.

    Attachment 10863

    Secretariat crosses finish line 31 lengths the best at the 73 Belmont Stakes in an amazing 2:24 for the grueling mile and a half.

    Secretariat won the Eclipse Award for American Champion Two-Year-Old Male Horse, only one horse since then, Favorite Trick in 1997, has won that award as a two-year-old.

    Already winner of The 73 Derby and Preakness, only four horses joined Secretariat for the June 9, 1973, running of the Belmont Stakes, including Sham, who had finished second in both the Derby and Preakness, along with three other horses thought to have little chance by the bettors: Twice A Prince, My Gallant, and Private Smiles. With so few horses in the race, and with Secretariat expected to win, no "show" bets were taken. Secretariat was sent off as a 1–10 favorite to win as a $2.20 payout on a $2 ticket and paid at 20 cents more – $2.40 – to place. Before a crowd of 67,605, Secretariat and Sham set a fast early pace, opening ten lengths on the rest of the field. After the 6-furlong mark, Sham began to tire, ultimately finishing last. Secretariat astonished spectators by continuing the fast pace and opening up a larger and larger margin on the field. Viewers heard the wonder in CBS Television announcer Chic Anderson's voice as he described the horse's pace: "Secretariat is widening now! He is moving like a tremendous machine!"

    In the stretch, Secretariat opened a 1/16 mile lead on the rest of the field. At the finish, he won by 31 lengths (breaking the margin-of-victory record set by Triple Crown winner Count Fleet, who won by 25 lengths) and ran the fastest 1½ miles on dirt in history, 2:24 flat, which broke the stakes record by more than 2 seconds. This works out to a speed of 37.5 mph for his entire performance. Secretariat's world record still stands, and in fact, no other horse has ever broken 2:25 for 1½ miles on dirt. If the Beyer Speed Figure calculation had been developed during that time, Andrew Beyer calculated that Secretariat would have earned a figure of 139, the highest figure he has ever assigned.

    Many bettors holding 5,617 winning parimutuel tickets on Secretariat never redeemed them, presumably keeping them as souvenirs (and because they paid only $2.20 on a $2 bet).

    Secretariat became the ninth Triple Crown winner in history, and the first in 25 years.

    Seabiscuit as inspirational a story and as courageous of a race horse as you will ever come across would have stood little chance to defeat Secretariat when both great runners were in their prime IMHO.

    Wil.


    thanks WIL ...do we know what Seabisuit ran that in or did he race on a different length track? biscuit was a smaller horse but he had a motor... he beat war admrial a huge horse and the king of those years
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8 No question about it Seabiscuit was no slouch..I just don't think he could defeat Secretariat at any distance or on any surface. 
    RX Local wilheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Where Needed
    Posts
    75,241
    From ESPN's Sportscentury Biography..

    Perhaps no horse in the 20th century captivated a nation the way Seabiscuit did in the late 1930s. At a time interest in horse racing was blossoming, the grandson of Man o' War became the people's choice for his determination, resiliency and raw talent. Many still consider his 1938 match race with War Admiral one of the sport's classic events.


    A rags-to-riches story, Seabiscuit didn't begin thriving until he had run dozens of races. After beating War Admiral in their epic battle, Seabiscuit raced only once in 1939 because of a serious injury. Remarkably, he returned as a seven-year-old and won the 1940 Santa Anita Handicap, the world's richest race. His legacy might have been even greater if not for two prior photo-finish defeats in that race.


    In 89 starts, Seabiscuit finished in the money 61 times (33 victories, 15 seconds and 13 thirds). He set 13 track records. When he retired in 1940, his earnings were $437,730, a record and almost 55 times the price owner Charles Howard paid for him four years earlier.

    "Seabiscuit's like a hunk of steel - solid, strong," said George Woolf, the Hall of Fame jockey who rode Seabiscuit in the race against War Admiral. The horse also had the heart of a champion. "You could kill him before he'd quit," Woolf said.


    Seabiscuit's best work was as an ambassador for the sport. "In the latter half of the Depression, Seabiscuit was nothing short of a cultural icon in America, enjoying adulation so intense, it transcended sport," author Laura Hillenbrand said in Seabiscuit: An American Legend.


    She wrote that in 1938, when he was voted Horse of the Year, Seabiscuit was the subject of more newspaper column inches than any newsmaker, including Franklin Roosevelt and Adolf Hitler.

    In 2003, Seabiscuit's story was turned into a successful movie. This came after Hillenbrand's 2001 book shot to No. 1 on the New York Times Bestseller List.


    Seabiscuit was born on May 23, 1933. "Runty little thing," said the foaling groom when he pulled the horse into the world. Seabiscuit's parents were Swing On and Hard Tack, who was the son of the legendary Man o' War. Hard Tack, known for his nasty temperament, raced to limited success before entering stud in 1932. Seabiscuit's early life was spent at Claiborne Farm in Kentucky.


    "Seabiscuit floated along in a state of contented, bovine torpor," Hillenbrand wrote. "Sleeping was his favorite pastime."


    The horse was branded lazy and defiant by his trainer, Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons. "He struck me as a bird that could sing," Fitzsimmons said, "but wouldn't unless we made him."


    Seabiscuit made his first start on Jan. 19, 1935, and came in fourth. His first win didn't come until five months later, in his 18th start, when he captured an allowance race. He finished with only five victories in 35 starts as a two-year-old, earning $12,510.


    In August 1936, Howard bought Seabiscuit for $8,000 - a relatively low price even in that era - and entrusted him to crusty trainer Tom Smith, who had lived a gypsy's life.


    Smith coddled Seabiscuit, showering him with affection and carrots. The whip was used sparingly and orders were issued not to disturb the horse while he was sleeping. To correct his aversion to the starting gate, Smith took Seabiscuit to a gate each morning and stood in front of him, tapping him on the chest until the animal stopped misbehaving.

    Seabiscuit eventually learned to stay still in the gate up to 10 minutes.

    Red Pollard, nicknamed Cougar, became Seabiscuit's jockey. Never a top rider, his career was going nowhere when he saw Seabiscuit for the first time. Smith liked the way the jockey connected with the horse.


    In September 1936, Seabiscuit won the Governor's Handicap, the season's main racing event in Detroit. It was his 50th race, a higher total than most thoroughbreds run in their entire career. But Seabiscuit was just entering his prime.


    In December, facing the toughest competition of his career, he set a track record in the World's Fair Handicap at Bay Meadows in California. The victory left Smith confident he had the nation's best horse as the Santa Anita Handicap approached, in February 1937. The $100,000 purse was the world's richest.


    In front of 60,000 fans, Seabiscuit lost to Rosemont in a photo finish. Despite the loss by a nose, Seabiscuit's popularity surged, bolstered in part by captive radio audiences and news footage shown at local movie houses. Smith began holding secret workouts. In March, Seabiscuit was a heavy favorite at San Juan Capistrano and won by seven lengths, setting a track record. Still, Seabiscuit's exploits took a backseat that year to Triple Crown winner War Admiral.


    Seabiscuit made his presence felt in the East in June, when he won the Brooklyn Handicap. The victory started the clamor for a Seabiscuit-War Admiral showdown. Seabiscuit's winning streak stood at seven stakes races, one short of the all-time record. But his bid to tie the mark was snapped on a sloppy track at Narragansett as he finished third (Bisket never liked to run on a sloppy track).


    Security measures were taken early in 1938, when a man was arrested for plotting harm to Seabiscuit in his stable. In February, Pollard was thrown and trampled when his horse, Fair Knightness, lost her footing. Pollard was told his career was finished as he lay in a hospital bed clinging to life with a collapsed chest.


    Pollard convinced Howard to have his good friend Woolf replace him as Seabiscuit's jockey. With "The Iceman" aboard, there was another photo finish at the Santa Anita Handicap - and another loss. This time Seabiscuit was edged out by Stagehand.


    Even so, the clamor increased for a meeting with War Admiral. After much squabbling between the sides on a date and site, the race was set for Memorial Day at Belmont Park.


    But the $100,000 showdown between Seabiscuit and War Admiral was canceled less than a week before the race when Smith detected soreness in his horse. A month later, the rivals were scheduled to meet at Suffolk Downs in Massachusetts, but Seabiscuit was withdrawn moments before the race when a strained tendon was found.


    He returned a week later and finished second at Arlington Park. On July 16, he won in front of 60,000 at Hollywood Park.


    Finally, the Seabiscuit-War Admiral dream matchup came to fruition on Nov. 1, 1938 at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. War Admiral, who drew the rail, was the 1-4 favorite. With an estimated 40 million fans listening on radio, Seabiscuit won by four lengths to capture the $15,000 purse.

    On Valentine's Day 1939, Seabiscuit's career again seemed finished after he ruptured a ligament during the Los Angeles Handicap. But Smith and Howard decided the horse had enough left to forge a comeback. That came on Feb. 9, 1940 at the La Jolla Handicap, where his jockey, Pollard, also made his return. Seabiscuit came in third and followed with a sixth-place finish at San Carlos before winning and equaling the track record in the San Antonio Handicap.


    That left Seabiscuit in position for the race that had escaped his clutches twice with photo finishes. More than 78,000 fans packed Santa Anita to watch Seabiscuit, who was burdened by a high weight of 130 pounds, gain his revenge. He ran the 1¼ miles in 2:01 1/5, a track record that stood for a decade. It was the second-fastest 10 furlongs run in American racing history until then (33 years later Secretariat then a 3 year old ran a lightning fast 1.59 and 2/5ths in the 1973 KY Derby in the traditional deep dirt at Churchill Downs, if you want to comapre time over distances, wil).


    Afterwards, Howard and Smith agreed their seven-year-old horse was ready for retirement. Seabiscuit was sent to Ridgewood, Calif.


    He died of an apparent heart attack on May 17, 1947, just six days short of his 14th birthday. Howard buried the horse on a secret site at the ranch. He later planted an oak sapling over the burial site, the location of which was known only to his sons.

    ESPN.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    over 2 seconds faster WOW.... that is amazing
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    RX Member HiPockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    693
    I enjoyed reading Laura Hillenbrand's 'Seabiscuit'. Good historical stuff Wil. Obviously, Secretariat would run past Seabiscuit. Perhaps a slant on the original question 'Seabiscuit vs Secretariat' would be which horse mattered more to the audience of the time. To say something stupid, - I loved Secretariat. I remember the exact moment I learned of his death over a car radio. Just like Seabiscuit, Secretariat ran astounding races during troubled times in our country. The racing game might have been bigger back in Seabiscuit's era, but Secretariat was special, phenomenal, and something that could be believed in back when the country's wheels seemed to be coming off. I'm not saying that a horse saved the country. I'm saying that Secretariat was so special that he inspired. Both Seabiscuit and Secretariat represent important timeless proud moments in our sports history.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #11  
    RX Wizard Gravy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cleveland,Ohio
    Posts
    9,692
    if its a match race Secretariat would demolish Seabiscuit as Secretariat could either go right for the lead or just lay back and pounce
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #12  
    Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit barman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Palm Harbor FL
    Posts
    45,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    SHUT UP!! GOOFBAG GO take billsey on a date .... what does she see in you! god I will never know!
    Might have something to do with the good luck she has wagering after rubbing his bald dome and making three wishes for winning bets each weekend.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #13  
    Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit barman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Palm Harbor FL
    Posts
    45,112
    As to the Topic question, I think I can't answer until I know who the jockeys are for this race.

    Will Spiderman be riding Seabiscuit like I saw in that movie?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #14  
    Super Moderator Betallsports's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    58,031
    I'm sure there are others on here.....But I was one of the many that were at Belmont that day with my parents. I had seen him race other times in NY, and thought he was a Very Good Horse. ( didn't think he would be a Monster )

    This was a Big deal back then.... maybe not as big as Seabiscuit time frame... But pretty close .

    As most know, I'm more of a harness Guy....But back then use to go with my Mom or Dad to Belmont. And they would take me a couple of friends.....

    But Remember that day pretty good....The place was packed....and all the talk was Secretariat !

    I also remember my dad saying he had seen the sire Bold Ruler race back in the 50's

    Anyway....being that it was a very short field Secretariat was the odds on fav.
    Not sure if you could have found 100 people betting against him that day.

    I for one could say, it might have been the Biggest Thrill of my life watching him race that day. And I don't think we will Ever see another horse like him on the Track.


    and Since we onto Horse Racing.... I would like to say that the Best Harness Horse I ever saw race was Albatross.

    Of course his Sons were Better in earnings......But we are talking a Huge Time frame between when he raced and Niatross raced.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #15  
    RX Senior gskiman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Where theres powder
    Posts
    3,294
    Overconfidence would defeat Secretariat as it did War Admiral.
    Seabiscuit would seize the moment and the crowds emotion and win in a closer finish than the win over War Admiral.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #16  
    RX Local Fishhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Posts
    75,004
    Quote Originally Posted by barman View Post
    Might have something to do with the good luck she has wagering after rubbing his bald dome and making three wishes for winning bets each weekend.

    Are you drinking?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #17  
    RX Local Coldweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    19,269
    Secretariat would win in my opinion cause he has a large heart and cause of this he has a much more gooder pulmonary function and these factors would loom rather large in that there race.

    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #18  
    Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit barman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Palm Harbor FL
    Posts
    45,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
    Are you drinking?
    Nope...rarely ever drink while at home.

    How about you?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #19  
    RX Local VIEJO DINOSAUR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Land of Smiles
    Posts
    20,353
    I would make a huge wager on Secretariat...the best horse of my lifetime....

    Both horses were amazing and bought racing fans and others closer together...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #20  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by Betallsports View Post
    I'm sure there are others on here.....But I was one of the many that were at Belmont that day with my parents. had seen him race other times in NY, and thought he was a Very Good Horse. ( didn't think he would be a Monster )

    This was a Big deal back then.... maybe not as big as Seabiscuit time frame... But pretty close .

    As most know, I'm more of a harness Guy....But back then use to go with my Mom or Dad to Belmont. And they would take me a couple of friends.....

    But Remember that day pretty good....The place was packed....and all the talk was Secretariat !

    I also remember my dad saying he had seen the sire Bold Ruler race back in the 50's

    Anyway....being that it was a very short field Secretariat was the odds on fav.
    Not sure if you could have found 100 people betting against him that day.

    I for one could say, it might have been the Biggest Thrill of my life watching him race that day. And I don't think we will Ever see another horse like him on the Track.


    and Since we onto Horse Racing.... I would like to say that the Best Harness Horse I ever saw race was Albatross.

    Of course his Sons were Better in earnings......But we are talking a Huge Time frame between when he raced and Niatross raced.

    damn you are OLDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #21  
    RX Local VIEJO DINOSAUR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Land of Smiles
    Posts
    20,353
    Dante....you should pay attention when Gravy and myself agree on a horse question....LOL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #22  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by barman View Post
    Might have something to do with the good luck she has wagering after rubbing his bald dome and making three wishes for winning bets each weekend.

    I heard this is the case also
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #23  
    RX Local Dante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    71,297
    Quote Originally Posted by gskiman View Post
    Overconfidence would defeat Secretariat as it did War Admiral.
    Seabiscuit would seize the moment and the crowds emotion and win in a closer finish than the win over War Admiral.

    now there ya go....
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #24  
    On paper, Secretariat. They don't run on paper.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #25  
    Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit barman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Palm Harbor FL
    Posts
    45,112
    JW, if that Little Theatre Group ever decides to do SEABISCUIT, I believe you should audition for the role of that gutsy jockey
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •